What are YOU doing?Att: New Zealand..post #37

[Cici]

I really admire your commitment, Through the Storm. It takes a lot of courage to front up publicly. You may be interested to know that Otago University is currently doing a long term study on maintenance vs. gradual withdrawal of fluoxetine (Prozac). My GP was talking to me about this recently - we do tend to think that doctors are in the thrall of Pharmac, but there is an increased awareness of the problems patients are having when withdrawing from SSRIs. Paroxetine certainly seems to be the worst, but I understand the study is looking at fluoxetine because it is the most commonly prescribed.When I was first prescribed paroxetine it was considered to be really safe and non addictive, and cold turkey stopping or rapidly lowering the dose seemed to be general advice, but now most doctors seem to be aware of withdrawal problems. I know my GP has been most sympathetic and helpful.This website may interest you. ttp://www.chmeds.ac.nz/departments/genprac/research.htm#depression.
My very best wishes to you.

[Songbird]

Great to see some research being done, although it looks like it is mainly about whether their depression returns afterwards rather than actual w/d problems. And if people do start to have w/d problems, it is likely to be recorded as a 'relapse' of depression and the recommendation from the study will be to stay on the 'maintenance' dose.

I do believe all the SSRIs and SNRIs have similar problems. My GP also hinted that he'd had some other patients who had trouble getting off paroxetine.

[Through the storm]

Look what I found guys!!! It was published in today's Herald....it's the response from your letters!!! Woohoo...way to go guys!!!!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/mental-hea...ectid=10576720

[scotty]

Wow, a follow up article is rare!

[Songbird]

Good to see a psychiatrist saying withdrawal is a 'major problem'. It says he is from Auckland University, one of our top universities and two med schools.

[Through the storm]

Well, I think it's great that they took all your letters seriously and acted on that. I hope that it doesn't end here, and that this argument gets opened up to public debate.

David Menkes is the professor I contacted also for a medical opinion. I'm glad he spoke openly here.

Hopefully this starts the ball rolling and people/doctors/media will start to question the safety/consequences of taking these medicines, or at least begin to take our concerns seriously. We are not a minority group as many would like to believe...

[_jane_]

I was just about to post about this, I just found the article on the Herald website! I am so glad that they did a follow-up story, and I am glad that Prof Menkes said it was serious problem.

[Songbird]

What I like as well is that the first article covered adverse effects while taking the drug, the second covered problems with trying to withdraw from the drug, so both of these problems have now been publicised.

[Through the storm]

Yes, that's what I picked up too Songbird. It's good that both these issues (just as important as each other) were raised, but maybe more so for withdrawal, seeing as this is a major problem not being discussed or acknowledged as it should be.

[Suzi]

Jade, this is wonderful. My partner doesn't want to be involved (sorry) and I'm off to the States in a couple of days to see my dad, but I wish you all the best and hope if I'm not in NZ when 60 Minutes airs the segment I can borrow a taped video from you or something (or it can be posted on you tube?)

Regarding the withdrawal, some of the oldtimers on this site may remember my getting their permission to use some of them reported symptom data for a research project I was doing up at Victoria University. That is now working its way into the publication pipeline, and later this year I'll be starting on my thesis at Vic, and that will also be on AD withdrawal.

In 2006 Rachel Liebert, a masters student at U of Auckland, did her thesis on SSRIs. It was titled "Medicate Me Into Madness: Knowledges of Adverse Effects from Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Antidepressant Use" and G and I are quoted in there under pseudonyms. As part of her research, she interviewed a variety of health professionals (coroner, doctors, psychiatrist, psychologist, GP's, pharmacists, etc. as well as a number of affected individuals) and she recounts several sad and harrowing stories about the interface between health professionals and patients regarding SSRI prescribing, use, and withdrawal. I guard my copy because copies of theses are hard to come by, but you should be able to borrow a copy on library interload; the U of Auckland library should have it. Or try to contact Nicola Garvey, who was her supervisor.

You go, girl!
Cheers,
Suzi

[Suzi]

I've just sent a letter to the NZ Herald in response to the two articles. I know I'm running a bit behind the times to get anything published, but I figure every letter they get that says "I think this is a problem" helps. I share it here. Some of you might find these stats of interest too.:

Dear Editor:
Your reporter, Martin Johnston, reported that according to industry trials, withdrawal problems with Aropax (paroxetine) “occurred in 30% of adults on the drug, compared with 20% on placebo pills” (Harold, 6 June.) Of course we know that it is in the financial interest of any pharmaceutical company to play down the negative effects of a drug.
There is much disagreement about how common or severe withdrawal is from paroxetine and other serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SRI) antidepressants, but the figure is likely to be higher than 30%. Dr. Jerrald Rosenbaum, chief of psychiatry at Massachusetts General in Boston, reported two-thirds of patients reported withdrawal symptoms from SRIs in general when screened with a checklist in a 1998 study, and according to UK drugs watchdog Charles Medawar, a survey completed by 192 doctors indicated that of patients treated with paroxetine, 21% experienced no or mild withdrawal symptoms; 58% reported moderate-to-severe withdrawal symptoms; and 21% reported severe withdrawal symptoms. In 2002, the UK Adverse Drug Reactions On-line Information Tracking (ADROIT) database reported 1281 cases of reported withdrawal reactions with paroxetine, compared to 242 with venlafaxine, 91 with fluoxetine, 81 with sertraline, and 49 with citalopram, other commonly prescribed antidpressants.
The withdrawal issues created by SRIs are neither rare nor insignificant. Thank you for running this story, and the previous one, May 30, Depression pill linked to suicide bids.
Regards

[Through the storm]

[quote=Suzi;567608]....... In 2006 Rachel Liebert, a masters student at U of Auckland, did her thesis on SSRIs. It was titled "Medicate Me Into Madness: Knowledges of Adverse Effects from Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Antidepressant Use"

Hi Suzi,

Thanks for informing me about this. I'd very much like to talk to Rachel - wonder if she'd be interested talking about her findings. Would you know if public are able to get electronic copies of this thesis?

Thanks also for writing into the paper. Every letter counts! You made very important claims about the percentages of people suffering withdrawal - the first time I had actually seen the figures for myself. I knew this issue wasn't a rare one, but I didn't actually realise how the figures weighed up. It's certainly alarming - especially that so many people have suffered withdrawal yet no action has been taken to stop this from continuing. Do people just not report this stuff, or is it the dismissive reactions we get from the medical side that prevent this being taken seriously?

[hamcam]

I would love a copy too.
How is it going with 60 minutes?

[Through the storm]

They are quite busy with filming right now, but should hear from them soon to determine whether this is still going ahead/where to from here....

[Suzi]

The last time I heard from Rachel she was in the U.S. on scholarship working on her PhD. That was a good year ago or more.

[Suzi]

I've just tried to send Rachel an email. Don't know if she'll get it, email addresses being almost as temporary as residences anymore, but I've sent her a link to this thread.

[Suzi]

I just got an email back from Rachel. If anybody wants to follow up from this, I quote this from her email, which I'm sure she won't mind my sharing here:

So so good to hear from you, and yes I got this and checked out the thread. It looks great and I am more than happy to be in contact with anyone, they can get through to me on this email. The only problem is that I am in them middle of exams at the moment so I might take a little while to respond to anything that requires some "depth"?!

With regard to a copy of my thesis, I will see if I can convert my Word format to PDF, and then I am more than happy for it to be circulated around - there is not point in doing this kind of work if it can't get out there! Otherwise Nicola and I have three articles published from it,


Liebert, R. & Gavey, N. (2006). “They took my depression and then medicated me into madness”: Co-constructed narratives of SSRI-induced suicidality. Radical Psychology, 5.
Liebert, R. & Gavey, N. (200. "I didn't just cross a line I tripped over an edge": Personal accounts of SSRI-induced suicidality and/or aggression. New Zealand Journal of Psychology, 37(1).
Liebert, R. & Gavey, N. (in press). "There’s always two sides to these things”: Managing the dilemmas of serious adverse effects from SSRI use. Social Science and Medicine, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2009.02.047.

[Mavafire]

wow this is wonderful. Did i read in one of the replies "60 minutes"? that would be so great if 60 minutes talked about ssri's and how it is hard to get of off them! Please keep me updated!

[Through the storm]

Originally Posted by Suzi

I just got an email back from Rachel. If anybody wants to follow up from this, I quote this from her email, which I'm sure she won't mind my sharing here:

Thanks for this Suzi. Sorry I hadn't checked thsi thread for some time so didn't realise there had been further responses.

Is there an email address to contact Rachel, and try to get a copy of her thesis? Do you want to PM it to me if she doesn't mind, or ask on my behalf?

Cheers!

[hamcam]

I would also like a copy of her thesis if possible.

TTS how are you doing at the moment. I trust all is well.

[Cici]

There is a contact email for Rachel on the Social science website Suzi quotes.There is also a mailing address and phone number - in New York. As this is on the open web presumably she won't mind contact.

[Through the storm]

Just received this email from Rachel - sure she wouldn't mind me sharing this with you.


I am familiar with your story - I had several people from New Zealand send it thru to me when it came out. It was really disturbing; not just because of what you must have gone thru/be going thru, but the way in which your experiences resonated with so many other people's. Can you imagine if you didn't figure out that it was the drugs?! The huge impacts that these experiences can have on people's sense of self and relationships is frightening. But, particularly for me, it's also infuriating as it is so unnecessary. People need to be made aware of these potentials - even if they still decide to use the drugs, they need to know that if these effects occur, it is not because they are "crazy". It's more because they've been pulled into a global and politicized network of corporate power thru pharmaceutical industry practices. Guh...!

So yes, absolutely, I would love to send you a copy of my thesis. I hope its useful. Because it's quite large I'm going to try and upload it to a site on the Interent. So I will send you thru the link as soon as that is sorted (should be in the next few days). I will also send you thru our articles. Everything you are welcome to distribute. Thank you so much for doing this.


I'll be in touch shortly re. the thesis/articles.
Cheers
Rachel

[hamcam]

Awesome!! I look forward to be able to read it.

[Through the storm]

Just received Rachel Liebert's thesis. She is travelling overseas at present, but will be sending some more documentation throuhg to me on her return.

Perhaps we could all have a read in the meantime and I could collate our feedback and email to her. She'd appreciate any comments, as is quite passionate about this.

NOTE: I tried to attach it, but I think the pdf file is too large. How about, if you're interested in reading this pm me and I'll send you a copy.

[luc]

Just wanted to bump this thread for more people to read. There're some great ideas on how to make people aware of what SSRIs really are.